Concerned about Brantly resale values

Brantly helicopters and parts wanted or for sale.

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Concerned about Brantly resale values

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:06 pm

I'd like to buy a Brantly, but I'm worried about my ability to resell it later if necessary.

I've seen the "asking" prices for the approx. 9 or 10 Brantlys that are for sale or at auction right now (everything from early B2's to late-model B2b's). Only problem is that nearly every one of these ships has been up for sale for well over a year...several years in some cases! I'm left with little assurance about the future marketability of anything I might purchase.

Any ideas on how much cash one can actually get for a Brantly helicopter if it needs to be sold in a timely manner? What do these ships really go for? Thanks.
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Postby Todd » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:37 am

It's hard to say what one is worth. Previously owning 2 B2Bs I have found that they are worth what someone will give you for them and that is all. Please note that I really like these little machines, but they have some big issues that holds the price down. The biggest problem I have with the B2B is the fact that you cannot obtain insurance anywhere for the machine. So, anyone that is buying one must have cash as most banks would require insurance to protect heir collateral. No liability insurance is a problem also. The factory has not sold a machine here in the States for at least 2 years that I know of and that makes we wonder how long they can hold on and how that would affect parts availability. The B2B is also extremely loud with no muffler and is a little underpowered, especially on a hot day. So, if you have cash and are not afraid of losing your investment if you crash and are not afraid to risk liability if you damage property or hurt someone else and are confident parts will be available, then it is a great flying machine that is a lot of fun. Be careful, though, as there is a lot of rough machines out there with questionable log books at best.
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Insurance

Postby Steve Chenoweth » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:53 am

There are some insurance companies that will issue policies for the Brantlys. Falcon may still do this, but I haven't checked with them for awhile. I have a policy issued from the UK. If anyone wants info, please send me an email as I have not posted the agent on the Web site.

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Postby Guest » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:13 pm

Hi Steve,

Falcon no longer will insure a Brantly. I'm leary of any insurance company out of the country as I was burned by Raymond Baril's company out of Canada. They went out of business 1/2 way through my policy and I was left uninsured with no refund. You have limited recourse with a non-US company should you have a serious claim. Do you have hull coverage?
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Postby RDRickster » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:22 am

You have limited recourse even if it was an American company that went out of business. You can make a claim with the Bankrupcy court to get some of your money back from any liquidation of the former company's assets, but that will still be a fraction and might not even cover your court costs!
Helicopter pilots have more "stick" control!
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Postby Todd » Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:36 pm

You are correct about bankruptcy proceedings. I guess my point was that it is much easier to work with an American company that is bound by American laws and is easy to visit in person if needed. At least you can easily track an American company and hold them accountable for a claim. I know a few instances where people with Brantly B2Bs waited 6+ months for claim settlements and had to settle for less than the claim actually cost. You would not have this problem with Falcon, etc as they are a quality provider that will pay immediately for a reasonable claim. This is the same reason they won't insure the Brantly - they just do not have enough data to come up with a reasonable premium, so instead of collecting your premium with no intentions of paying a claim - they do the honorable thing and just decline to witre the policy at all.
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Postby roger rover » Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:46 pm

>>>I guess my point was that it is much easier to work with an American company that is bound by American laws and is easy to visit in person if needed. <<<<<<<

just try to visit the underwriter, you won't even get in the door. the underwriter determines your policy, and any claims. the agent is just the middle guy.

>>>You would not have this problem with Falcon, etc as they are a quality provider that will pay immediately for a reasonable claim. <<<<<

and i can show you people that had to fight all the way, several months, to get "falcon, etc" to pay up.

>>>>they just do not have enough data to come up with a reasonable premium, so instead of collecting your premium with no intentions of paying a claim - they do the honorable thing and just decline to witre the policy at all.<<<<<<<<<<

wtf? honorable?? you use the word "honorable" in refering to insurance companies? hardly think so, they are the bain of the aviation industry. insurance underwriters have done more damage to aviation and other industries than anything else. i've had underwriters refuse to quote a policy "because i don't feel like it today" (an actual given reason). arogance and stupidity rule the underwriting world. most underwriters are "KWT" (kids with ties).

not enough competition in the us market is killing us. perhaps if more offshore companies get into the game, then these preditory practices would cease.

just my opinion.
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Postby Nick » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:21 pm

I think you can always get insurance for anything - it is just a question of what you have to pay. Here in NZ we do not have the ability to sue for personal injury. Everyone is covered for the cost of treatment by Accident insurance with the Govt. This has resulted in a drastically reduced insurance cost. Most of our insurance (in one way or another) gets quoted onn by LLoyds of UK. We have a number of NZ and Australian Insurance companies that offer good service and which insure their own risks.

I have had a number of insurance quotes for full hull insurance on the Brantly both during transit (less than a 3rd US insurers quote ) and for flying here in NZ.

We also dont have as much opportunity for creating mayhem here in NZ as in US (particularly Ohare or similar)

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Postby Todd » Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:37 pm

Good points about NZ nick - I wish it was the same here with liability; however, it is not and getting liability insurance is very tough and hull nearly impossible. If you have any net worth at all in the States you better not fly a plane/heli anywhere that you may cause damage to people or persons or you could find yourself in the poorhouse. That leads to another problem - while you may not get sued for hurting someone, if you should throw a tailrotor blade through a Citation windshield parked on the ramp you would have a $100,000 bill. It's a tough issue for sure.
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Postby Guest » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:11 am

Valuing these ships is always tough, since there are relatively few flying examples and Brantlys are still somewhat unknown and a bit underpowered for many applications. The rule of thumb: It's worth what someone will pay. So you have the choice to either wait (yes, sometimes for several years) for a buyer who agrees with you on a higher value, or to sell more quickly at whatever the market will bear at the time. As I mentioned, the market is pretty thin, so for one who doesn't have the time to wait a few years for a willing buyer, a selling price will likely be lower. You'll still get whatever the ship is "worth", it just won't be worth as much at the time.

Getting down to brass tacks, based on what I've seen lately in the used market, if you need to make a short-term sale, I'd estimate the selling price of an in-annual, good-condition and good-times-remaining Brantly to be around $40,000. (This is for the B-2B. A B2 or B-2A might bring $30,000, but these are difficult to sell at all.) Note: the value of a late-model Brantly would also be another story. Again, your results may vary, and if you have time (yes, a few years, perhaps) you may be able to sell for $5,000 or maybe even $10,000 above these prices. It comes down to luck and timing.
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Brantly Prices

Postby Steve Chenoweth » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:59 pm

I think that 40,000 is way too low, and is not consistent with the recent experience that I am aware of. One of our Forum members has sold several B2Bs at $55,000, another just sold his for $60,000. Another Forum member got $50,000 on eBay over a year ago. Many of the sales are not even advertised, so it is hard to determine the market value by looking at what might be listed publicly.

That aside, I think most would agree that the even at $60,000, a Branlty is an EXCELLENT value compared to an R-22.

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Postby Nick » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:16 pm

and an absolutely amazing value compared to a rotorway exec
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Postby Nick » Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:36 pm

Steve , I am glad that you have made the comments you did - saved me saying the same things. I dont know how many people in this forum have followed rotorway owners forum. I came to buy a brantly because I was looking at rotorway. Rotorway are, by comparison to brantly, a very primitive and unstable machine. They have a serious and unresolved secondary drive shaft "problem" Their owners (most of them) dont fly over water or forest or any distance. Most have less than 100hrs.

There is little difference in performance between a H269B and a B2B. B2b is more stable is slighthly heavier and is over engineered by comparison. It lifts about 50kgs less. The B2B is not subject to ground resonance and I have seen the wrecks of several H269s and actually saw one fly apart. The B2B is also less subject to dynamic rollover than most other helis.

The main cause of heli accidents is trying to fly out of the envelope. We have quite a number of people in NZ who heve managed to do this even in H369s! Heli flying is about always having sufficient power left to do what is intended.

Any one who pays US$65K for a kitset and spends 500 hrs plus and at least another $10k to get a rotorway exec has obviously never heard of Brantly!

As you are aware I looked at several B2Bs recently and bought one a month ago. The dearest was US$75K and cheapest was $42K. The $42k machine had no transponder or ELB and was less than 1/2 life. The one I bought is 3/4life. Most machines were $55k - $75k asking. I am aware of 4 machines that sold during Feb this year. H269s with 1/2 life sell in the $150k - $200k+ range.


Out of interest Brantly have built about 450 B2 - B2B. I have found that close to 350 are still on various registries around the world. That is amazing! Rotorway claim to have sold 1600 kits. There are less than 500 registered!

The only problem I am having (the machine is still in CA) is the paper work. Reputable AEs had given the machine annuals without noticing that the TRGB and IGB had different serial nos to that recorded in log book. Also your yellow tag system does not require full traceability of part life components which our CAA does.

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Postby Guest » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:48 pm

Roger Rover,

Since you are an expert in the insurance field and can determine exactly what to charge for isurance why don't you pony up $10,000,000 or so of risk capital and take the risk insuring these helicopters. Until you are ready to do such, I would not talk to hard against the companies that are denying to write coverage. Yes, they are doing the honorable thing by NOT quoting a machine that they know they do not want to pay a claim on. The fact that they do not want to quote your helicopter or plane is their business and you have plently of alternatives including self insurance. Like I said, if you don't like it - start your own company.
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Postby Guest » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:01 pm

Steve,

I would agree with you that the B2B is a great little machine and a good value $ wise, but I will disagree with what many seem to think they are worth. EC helicopters just had a nice little B2B with low time, current annual, and nice paint & interior. I was high bidder @ $38,000 and could have bought it for under $45,000. I sold my B2B 2 years ago on eBay for $50,000; however, that was a really clean helicopter with a very strong engine, no elongated holes in the main blade dampener connects, NO oil leaks, new kevlar clutch and all assemblies, excellent paint and interior, and a spare main transmission, tail rotor blades, and many other extra parts.
What concerns me a little is that people that would not even consider driving their new Dodge Viper with a loan on it on the road with no insurance at all would not hesitate to fly their helicopter without insurance. The risk of damage to the helicopter or persons & property are much higher in the helicopter. Just seems kind of strange.
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