PLENTY OF POWER

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PLENTY OF POWER

Postby 9121u » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:18 pm

I am probably not going to be liked after this post.. but here it goes. a good brantly has plenty of power if flown within its limits.so any pilot over 200 pounds needs to lose weight.plain and simple.don't make the brantly solve your problem.its yours. this problem will never be solved in a brantly.not unless they reproduce the 305.that wont either because it cost to much.loosing weight will solve many problems. your like your health.. passing a medical.. your instructions if you don't have a license.because 2 heavy pilots is not good.example.. my 1 son weighs 240 pounds i am 135 and i wont take him up in my brantly its not a safe thing to do. so i told him to loose weight then we will go flying hate to be like that but i am a safe pilot. and with never a problem..I also fly experimental airplanes and weight is a big factor in flying them also.to heavy i just say no..and all helicopters are limited.to this problem..bigger engine wont solve any thing the pilots will just get bigger..and want a bigger bigger engine...it will neaver end.. sorry.. the only that's needs changed on the brantly is the components that are under 600hrs bring them up where they should be 1200 hrs.sorry for picking on you guys.that's the facts...thanks for listening....2191u..tom
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby scrapper » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:14 am

Tom- Ha, you mother hen! You of course are 100% correct and your candidness is appreciated. If this happens for me, safety is # 1 and it seems weight is a big factor, perhaps ignored too much in accident reports. In fun, couldn’t we just get a Lycoming 190 HP, so we would have to lose a little less weight? I know I am naive in my other post asking about a slightly bigger motor.

Today I am posting from the Lycoming Valley, home of lots of aviation history. Lycoming motors is here and just west Loch Haven, home of piper cub. Should I drive around back of Avco-Lycoming on Christmas day when no on is looking and snag a engine or two for you guys? (I am just joking)

Alright Tom, 135, you lucky dog! Maybe you can’t cook as well as some of the rst of us! We might be bigger for good reason! Ha again.

Merry Christmas to all.
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby 9121u » Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:31 am

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL. i am trying to nug brantly a little with this post.IF THERE PAYING attention?? because i no there a lot of bigger guys that insist they must have a brantly i don't blame them its a good little helicopter.i figured if they throw a turbo charger on it would perform like the Enstrom but probably better. witch the HP be around 220 HP. but i don't think the blades or tail rotor drive shafts and rag joint coupler and torque straps.. can take that much torque.i talked to Harold J. about this before he said they had a turbo on a test brantly but it caught on fire so they quit the testing..the technology is here now better turbos they just need to get on the ball and satisfy the BRANTLY NEEDS/// ..2191U TOM
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby Ron Spiker » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:40 am

9121u wrote:... a good brantly has plenty of power if flown within its limits.so any pilot over 200 pounds needs to lose weight.plain and simple.don't make the brantly solve your problem.its yours.


I have to disagree with this. The Brantly has a 600 lb useful load (its limits). With that you *should* be able to carry two 200lb people and a full load of fuel. That is still within the weight limits of the aircraft, but not necessarily doable. Your example of 240 + 135 is well within those limits. If you do get close to the limits with people weight, then don't put in as much fuel. 400 lbs in the cabin is not that unusual and is not overweight, even with full fuel. Some Brantlys have more power than others. Some in the summertime can only safely carry 1 person with a full load of fuel. Others you can load it up with fuel and have two 200 lb people and still be ok. I have flown several where there is 350+/- lbs in the cabin and only 20 gallons of fuel and we still struggle when doing ground work, and even have to do running takeoffs sometimes. That is 130 lbs less than the max useful load of the aircraft. A pilot can be 250 or even 300 lbs and not be outside the "limits" of the Brantly. As long as he can get in it and still follows the weight and balance calculations, the aircraft is not overweight and should be able to fly just fine. Some cannot.

If the helicopter has a useful load of 600 pounds, you'd think it would be able to carry 600 pounds. Of course higher density altitude and other conditions will affect this, but sometimes even 450-500 lbs are too much. The Brantly has plenty of power if flown with full fuel and only one pilot, for sure. With that you are likely 200-250 lbs less than the max useful load.

There have been many accidents where the pilot, passenger, and fuel were "within limits" (e.g., less than 600 lbs), but still on takeoff could not make it through ETL, settled back down and crashed. Or were doing ground maneuvers and ran out of power. I constantly teach low RRPM recovery and low power takeoffs, not because its nice and useful to know, but out of necessity.

If you want to use "limits" that are 200 lbs below the published useful load, then I would agree; the Brantly has plenty of power, under almost all conditions. But if you use the published figures and fly in the upper 20% of these limits (which is much of the time when there are 2 people on board) then sometimes, in some aircraft and conditions you have enough power. Sometimes you do not.
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby scrapper » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:57 pm

Thanks - good discussion
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby fraundo » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:27 pm

I fly year round in Wisconsin and I at 225(sadly I agree) with my wife at 115 and full fuel can fly in the hottest days of summer(100 degrees F) but I have to be cautious with power management. Maybe my ship is one of the weaker ones or I am not as experienced a pilot as others but in any case I do have to be cautious because if not careful or too abrupt of control inputs and low rotor RPM and LTE comes on fast, I have been there and had to react. Never had a crash but did have to drop quickly from a hover taxi or beginning of a takeoff. In the dead of winter when it is near 0 degrees Fahrenheit the difference is immense. I can take a much heavier passenger and still have more power. The air density in the cold really makes flying more fun but doors stay on. I sealed up the doors with some weather stripping and put a little air circulator near the heater vent and it actually gets warm enough to open up your jacket. The sightseeing is not as nice here in Wisconsin in the winter but I still enjoy it.
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby seneca2e » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:39 pm

Telling people to lose weight is a non starter. The Brantly needs more power just to be able to power out of problems. You can call it pilot error but the facts are you want to fly a aircraft where you don't have to be near perfect. Because who among us is a perfect pilot? No matter how good you are (or think you are) there'll come a day if you fly much that a little extra power can save the day. Just another 20 hp would be immense and easily doable. My Seneca 1 had 200 HP IO360EB engines that ran 3 tbo cycles flawlessly. Those were very good engines.

Most americans are not even going to sniff being a 135 pounds and most of us at 6 foot and up really wouldn't want to be that rail thin anyway lol.

The Brantly remains a very intriguing machine and could be improved greatly with minimal changes. It's stood the test of time and there are people out there that know a LOT about it. Let's hope it's on its way back to production!
Last edited by seneca2e on Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby scrapper » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:34 pm

seneca, simple minded here, to go + 20HP, would it take a different engine? how much more would it weigh?

Brantly was designed for the Lycoming 180, so could other aspects get messed up? e
I see they a they supply to some other copter co
190HP.

Could better fuel injection or turbo add on get it up 20 HP?


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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby 9121u » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:43 pm

There are no less than 86 different versions of Lycoming’s highly successful 0-360-series four cylinder engines. Of these, 27 are carburetted models of 180hp; there are seven low compression carburetted versions of 168 hp; one fuel injected model of 177hp, 10 fuel injected versions of the 180 hp engine; 22 fuel injected models of 200 hp, including five aerobatic versions; three turbocharged models of 200 hp, and 16 helicopter configurations with ratings of 180, 190, 205, 225 and 230 hp. The list of current production aircraft powered with these engines is too long to include here.

HOPE this helps on engine understanding. got this from lycoming spec...all based on new condition. not on wore out ones.because a worn engine starts to derate its self and does not produce its original HP and that's why some brantlys have more power then others .airplanes engines wont notice this lack of HP as much. one can let the compression get a little low on airplane.helicopter is totally different breed.torque and HP is your best friend in a helicopter.this is what i meant abought flying WITH IN ITS LIMIT"S ...NOT BRANTLY SPECS... im not good with wording things sometimes.or computers.... yes brantly could make these helicopters have more power. with little effort thanks.....2191u....tom
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby scrapper » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:26 pm

When I go to look at used Brantlys with mechanic in tow,
to get a sense of engine condition
-we can check compression on all 4 Cy. ok
- what about valves, i assume to see if they are burned they are hard to get to?

other checks?

TIA
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Re: PLENTY OF POWER

Postby 9121u » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:58 pm

WHAT i like to see is a compression of no less then 70/80 ...80/80 is new condition..this check shows condition of cylinders/such as rings/valves/piston blow by..there many other checks for pre buy.you need to make a list of checks so do not forget any thing. parts and labor is expensive for a helicopter.having a list will save mony in long run..hope this helps....9121u..tom
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